Here are the posts we've had thus far...

bekkaboo
Housesitter posted 01-31-2005 02:58 PM

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No, but seriously, please bear with me as I try and try and explain this without fully knowing myself what I believe....(read: sorry for probably rambling)

I definitely believe in some kind of god. I don't have a defined set of beliefs about this god, I spent 13 years in Catholic school being bombarded with a VERY CLEARLY defined set of beliefs about God. During school, I definitely knew that I disagreed with a lot that I was taught. After school, and in the years following, I have identified myself with no religion, and have been struggling to define what it is I believe in.

I guess I could go on forever about this, so let me attempt to get to the question. I believe in God, though I can't tell you exactly what I believe that God is, and I believe that God is good. Maybe I just believe this to comfort myself, or convince that all the earthly bullsh*t is worth something in the end, but whatever. I believe in God, and I believe that God is good, to put it as simply as possible and not ramble on for 8 pages.

So, my question is: If you do indeed believe in God, and believe that God good, do you also believe in a "devil?" In an opposing force to God, that wishes for humans to do evil instead of good? In a hell? All through school I was taught about Satan, and about frightening visions of hell, and how I would go straight there if I died with a single sin on my soul (unless of course I was hit by a bus on my way to confession.)

My thing is: I just can't reconcile a Devil with what I'd like to believe about God. One of the favorite ideas I've ever heard about the afterlife was this: (and I'm not putting any stock in this really, except for I really like the idea: this is a story from a grade-school teacher, who was full of lies, I realized as I got older) A teacher was telling us about a person that (supposedly)had a near-death experience. That person said that after they died, and came to meet God, they were made to feel all the pain and bad feelings that they themselves had ever intentionally caused another person during their lives on Earth. What a fabulous idea! At first I tought, well, haven't I felt enough pain caused by others on Earth to have some in the bank? But if you think about it, it's really fair: The person who caused you pain will feel it in the end, so likewise, you're accountable for yourself.

This is what I'd like to believe, not because someone supposedly experienced it for themselves, but because it seems just, and keeps me from being too vengeful, because I can think "well, they'll get theirs back in the end, it's not my job here." But, if that's the case, I can't see where there would be need for a hell, or how a just God could turn away someone who had paid for all of their sins in such a manner. So I'm not sure what to believe about that. The best description I ever heard of hell was not fire or brimstone or demons, but simply the absence of God.

So, yeah, sorry for rambling, but I've been really curious lately to hear what others believe (and please keep in mind that I am still very unsure about what I believe myself) - and maybe I should've put this in the Theology thread.

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I think that's really interesting...while I don't believe in god, per se, I think that's something to think about it. It sort of fits into my mish-mash ideas (karma, etc.) ideas of how things work.

Strangely enough, before I questioned my beliefs in god or a higher power, I decided that I didn't believe in heaven or hell. I'm not sure what caused me to start thinking about it...to me, the Devil seemed too much like a make-believe figure thrown in to balance out God. I could accept the idea of a higher power, but not a figure whose purpose is to explain the bad things that happen. Does that make sense?

I don't have anything intelligent to say, other than I'd like to see where this thread goes...I've got an essay coming up about religion, and this might spark something I hadn't thought about.

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I also spent a lot of time in Catholic school, and I do believe in God. My conception of God is an all-good, yet fairly hands-off sort of deity. My feeling is that you generally have all the tools you're going to need to be a good person, and what you do with those tools, and the choices you make are yours, not God's. People can do God's work every day of their lives without ever explicitly identifying with a religion, believing in a god - I'd call it God's work, someone else might call it honoring the humanity in others, or any number of things.

That said, I'm not sure I believe in a Devil, per se, but I am utterly convinced in the existence of Evil in a very, very potent form. I was a really intense little kid, and there were some times, and some people that while not obviously threatening would cause me to just completely go to pieces - cry, refuse to deal with the person or the situation - because I just had such a strong, palpable sense of this malevolent presence. As I grew up I tried to convince myself that this was some sort of wacky, little kid hysteria, but I can't shake it. I think there is an element of evil in this world - call it the devil, attribute it to human nature, whatever you want - but it's there, and some people resist, some people don't, but I think that evil isn't the horned creature we saw in Sunday School books, but episodes and decisions in our lives that move us far, far away from a course of action that honors ourselves, our own goodness, and the goodness and value of the people around us.

What a thought-provoking question, BekkaBoo!

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quote:Originally posted by Finch:
I think that evil isn't the horned creature we saw in Sunday School books, but episodes and decisions in our lives that move us far, far away from a course of action that honors ourselves, our own goodness, and the goodness and value of the people around us.

Well put.

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I did a paper on the devil and his role in different religons for a religon and theology class I took in college. I need to find that paper because I really was fascinated by all I learned. My favorite quote I read when doing my reserch is the one I used to open my paper...

"Of course you think I am horrible...God has written all the books." -The Devil

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Fascinating topic!

I don't believe in the image of the devil as it's generally presented to us, but I do believe in the devil as an idea, if that makes sense? As in, I don't think that he has horns or a red body or rules over a land of flames, in that sense.

I don't believe that there is a Hell. At the very worst, and only for those that absolutely do not have a lick of good in them, there is only nothingness after death. Basically, in my religion we believe that God sends our souls to earth to learn and grow and gain the necessary experience to appreciate the heavenly kingdom (aka Heaven) where our souls dwell. It would take a lot... a LOT... for your soul to not be welcomed back in some form (we also have different "levels" of heaven, so to speak)

I do, however, believe that there are forces that work against God, forces that have evil souls and can take on corporeal form. That's generally what I refer to if I talk about the devil. I think (these are my beliefs, not my religions) that these forces are there to test you, to give you conflict that gives you opportunity to grow as a human being and in faith. However, his forces are strong and can easily lead you away and cause you to abandon all. I've felt his presence and I've seen him in people. It's more than just negativity... when you encounter it.. and actually realize it... it's the most terrifying thing in existence.

Edit:Looks like I pretty much said the same thing as Finch... sorry about that!!

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quote:Originally posted by Dewgirl:
Basically, in my religion we believe that God sends our souls to earth to learn and grow and gain the necessary experience to appreciate the heavenly kingdom (aka Heaven) where our souls dwell. It would take a lot... a LOT... for your soul to not be welcomed back in some form (we also have different "levels" of heaven, so to speak)

Is there any mobility between these levels, or once you're dead you're stuck eternally at the level you came in?

That's why I love Digs - I've never met a Mormon IRL and it's so good being able to ask someone these random little questions. I've recently finished "Under the Banner of Heaven", which was very interesting, but can you suggest a counterpoint? I'd like to get both sides of the story.

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Something very weird just happened...

I was reading the newer posts about the devil and I got an email at work about a new gallery exhibit called "Journey to Hell", about paintings inspired by Dante's Inferno....

Weird.

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quote:Originally posted by Sophie:
Is there any mobility between these levels, or once you're dead you're stuck eternally at the level you came in?

Hmm.. this is going to be tough to explain.

It's sort of a two step process... after you die, you receive a "partial judgement"... you kind of get put in a Heavenly holding pattern until the resurrection, when you are either sent to the Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial Kingdom. Even the lowest (the Telestial) Kingom is a wonderful heaven.. the differences get too doctrinal to explain here.

As far as transition goes... you know, I don't have an answer for that. Though now I'm curious and will try to find out!

I unfortunately don't know anything about that book, or even if its a pro- or anti- Mormon work, so I don't know what to reccomend for the other point of view. Can you tell me about it?

By the way I'd always be glad to answer any questions you have. I'm still an "investigator", which means I haven't been baptized yet and am still learning about the church and its beleifs. On 99.9% of matters they mesh with mine, so I refer to myself as Mormon even though I'm not baptized, but I just want you to know I can't technically speak for the beliefs of the church. Just a little disclaimer! But thank you for asking me these questions, as they bring up matters I may not have looked into on my own!

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