Even though "bad" parents seem so obvious to everyone, I still hesitate to use the terms "good" and "bad," because what might work for some families wouldn't work for others, and I'd hate to see a parent castigated for "bad" parenting. I mean, there are definitely actions that are never good (beating, abusing, etc.), but it can be difficult to know the whole story when you see a parent and child having an altercation in public. I think being a parent is one of the hardest thing a person can take on. Kids don't come with operating instructions (nor should they) and everyone is just winging it when it comes to building a family.

But yeah, things are a lot more age-segregated than in times past. Not so many extended families all living together. As a 20-something I don't see kids a lot other than sometimes on the bus because I get out of work around when school lets out. Other than one couple I know who has a child, the only kids I really see are at church for storytime.. but attending church regularly isn't all that common here for people my age, and my church is unusually family-focused, for that matter.

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Originally posted by Caterwaul:
Even though "bad" parents seem so obvious to everyone, I still hesitate to use the terms "good" and "bad," because what might work for some families wouldn't work for others, and I'd hate to see a parent castigated for "bad" parenting. I mean, there are definitely actions that are never good (beating, abusing, etc.), but it can be difficult to know the whole story when you see a parent and child having an altercation in public. I think being a parent is one of the hardest thing a person can take on. Kids don't come with operating instructions (nor should they) and everyone is just winging it when it comes to building a family.

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Good points Caterwaul. I'd agree with that. As I get older I have more friends that are having babies and I'm befriending people older than me that already have kids. One thing they all unanimously say is that when you become pregnant and have children, you and your children as suddenly treated as community "property" (for lack of a better word). For example, strangers thinking it's okay to touch a pregnant woman's belly or kiss a small child is an obvious example. But they also say that complete stangers will come up and criticize them and/or their children for what is perceived as bad parenting or badly-behaved kids. Like, having kids suddenly gives everyone else a license to analyze and criticize everything about you. You're right that sometimes a public altercation between a parent and a child might appear one way to a complete stenager when it's taken out of context. Obviously, physically hurting a child is bad, but you know sometimes people are at their wits end and they just are emotionally spent and blow up. It's not cool, but as human beings we all do it. We do it to other adults, but when we do it to children it seems so much more inappropriate since they don't have to capacity or experience to understand. That's kind of what I was hinting at in my first post. People have bad days and make mistakes (and sometimes there are other cicumstances that aren't apparant to a stranger). How they handle it afterwards really counts though. Examples, my mom & I clashed severely from when I was about 13 to 15. Sometimes I was my fault, sometimes it was hers, sometimes it was both... but when she blew up at me, she came back afterwards and said, "Hey, I'm sorry I was having a bad day or I wasn't feeling well and I shouldn't have spoken to you like that." Half the time we were just PMSing at the same time anyhow and we both moody. I totally respect her for doing that and it taught me to face my mistakes when I do things that are hurtful to other people (unintentionally, either because of ignorance or just temporary emotional instability). A's dad on the other hand would have similar disagreements but he would never own up to it. He always brushed it off, acted like it never happened, and changed the subject. To this day, A is a little miffed about that. People have disagreements and arguements, and I think it's important for kids to learn (through their parents example) how to resolve those, apologize when necessary, and move on without holding it in and building up resentment.

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Originally posted by Caterwaul:
On a slight tangent: do you think our society is supportive of good parenting? I often don't think so, between the economic necessity of two-income families for a lot of people and the absence of an over-arching support system.

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I agree it's pretty difficult to have an "ideal" family situation these days. I guess that depends on how you define ideal though. In my mind the parents would have plenty of time to be engaged in their kids lives, but reality doesn't always allow that to happen. It's expensive to have kids and someone has to earn money to put food on the table. I know people though that would argue that any kind of gov. subsidy or other type of compensation that would make it economically easier to have kids would be unfair to those that choose not to have kids. And then of course there's the whole arguement over time off work which I think was discussed in another thread. I'm not sure of the right answers on that, but I understand what you're saying and as a future parent the money issue scares me.

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Originally posted by Caterwaul:
What I mean by that is: I recently noticed that I hardly ever interact with young children anymore. Few of my friends have kids yet, and I occasionally see them on the bus, but I'm not getting any "practice" with kids. I expect I'll be starting a family in the next 5 to 10 years, and frankly, I hardly know anything about how to interact with kids.

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I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Where else in our society would you expect to interact with small children if not through friends and family (unless you do in your job)? Sorry, that part confused me.

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Originally posted by BionicGirl:
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Where else in our society would you expect to interact with small children if not through friends and family (unless you do in your job)? Sorry, that part confused me.

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I pretty much meant what yam posted: I think fewer families live in extended family situations. Also, I've noticed a tendency among people I know who now have kids to segregate themselves: they only interact with other parents. Maybe because they feel like they have more in common? I dunno. I don't have any suggestions for this, either. I just noticed a couple of years ago that I don't ever interact with kids. At the time, I was involved in community counseling, and one of the things we did was to try to create more opportunities for adults to interact with kids. We arranged for play days (usually on a weekend), where parents in the counseling community would bring their kids and a bunch of us kidless folks would show up, and it would just be a fun day of activities and play. I found myself almost at a loss because it had been so long since I truly played the way kids do. But it was a ton of fun.

I think part of the awkwardness for me, too, is that I sometimes don't know where to draw the line with other people's kids. Like, if I'm hanging out with one of my friends and his nine-year-old son, I sometimes find myself telling the kid "don't do that" if he's obviously gonna get hurt, but then feeling all weird and like I'm overstepping my bounds as the non-parental adult. Maybe that's just me, though.

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Originally posted by BionicGirl:
I consider myself very lucky for that and sometimes feel guilt about it actually... which I'm not too sure is healthy.

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I think that a lot of parents feel pressured into playing every role for their kids: disciplinarian, best friend, chauffeur, babysitter, teacher, personal chef. And I don't think that's best for the kids. Your best friend shouldn't discipline you. Your disciplinarian shouldn't potty train you.

I think parents need time away from their kids, and vice versa.

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Originally posted by amaryllis:

I think that a lot of parents feel pressured into playing every role for their kids: disciplinarian, best friend, chauffeur, babysitter, teacher, personal chef. And I don't think that's best for the kids. Your best friend shouldn't discipline you. Your disciplinarian shouldn't potty train you.

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You remind me of my dad telling me as a kid, whenever he had to, that he was not here to be my friend. He didn't care if I thought he was uncool or unfair, he didn't care if I "hated" him. He would say, someday when you're older - because you WILL live to be older - we'll be friends. But right now I'm your dad and that's it.

I've mentioned that to people who were shocked and felt sorry for me that my dad didn't want to be my friend. I'm just grateful he saw it that way and communicated it the way he did. I feel the same way now about the bean. It's a bonus if your kids think you're cool and an interesting person... possibly very unlikely though. So all you can do is keep them alive, let them grow strong and into themselves and know that someday you will be friends with them.

I think one of the reasons parents my age have kids who are completely out of control is because it means so much to them to have their kids' approval. We all grew up saying I'm not going to be a dork like my mom, I'm gonna be a cool mom. Well, the closer I get to it the better being a dork mom looks.

And yeah, I'm afraid I will screw up!

Edited because I just remembered an article I read that challenged parents to note how many times they asked their kids for permission to be parents, as in "Let's go to bed now, ok?" "It's time to eat, ok?" The parents he quoted to find that they say ok? 20-30 times a DAY. What do you think that says about parenting?

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Originally posted by crowjoy:
I've mentioned that to people who were shocked and felt sorry for me that my dad didn't want to be my friend. I'm just grateful he saw it that way and communicated it the way he did.

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Amen, amen, amen.

Admittedly, I am not anybody's biological mom (yet ) but my parents were the same way, and so I've naturally become that way with my stepdaughter. And I think that might be partly why she behaves wonderfully the vast majority of the time (when she visits her mom, who always tries to be the "buddy," she is often a little b****, unfortunately.)

Of course, the young'un and I have lots of fun together, too ... I like to play, which helps But when it's time for me to chill out with Daddy for a while, or exercise, or work on the computer, I don't drop everything because the little one demands to be entertained. She's welcome to hang out with me, or exercise with me, or help me mix up the marinade or whatever I'm doing, and we have lots of fun that way and she's learning something useful, too.

"Mom, I'm bored!"
"Well, go find something to do, Jane. I'm not your cruise director."

Good parents. Hmm. I think all parents make mistakes, surely mine did, but my take on parenting, what I learned from them is that when raising children, you have to create a safe and loving environment while arming them with ethics, ideals, independence -- and just as important but less glamorous -- survival skills. You want to turn out good people with big dreams who can cut it in the outside world, people who take chances but are responsible and appropriately cautious, people who know they can always count on home and family to feel safe and secure, but who don't fall back on that instead of moving forward. It is a tricky balance, for sure.

My mom kind of didn't get sometimes that she was doing such a good job. She lamented my lack of confidence, wondered what she was doing wrong. How do you at age 9 explain to your parents that part of keeping your head down is saving your own ass? "Mom, I know what I'm doing. Really." She's wondering why I am not running around as a child madly in love with myself and my capabilities. She forgot how harsh reality is, how quickly a well-prepared child can adapt to the garbage she faces. As a mom, she never stopped the affirmations, never failed to infuse me with the belief that I could do anything, and at the same time, her own real-world insecurities gave me the inside scoop that life outside was hard and tricky, and knowing that, I've always managed to navigate the terrain with some skill. I believe in my talents, I take chances and put myself out there, but I've always been able to protect myself and I expect to work for everything I get. I chalk that up to the efforts of parents who were realistic, fallible, responsible and always approachable.

Both were gay men, so it was a different perspective. One doesn't want kids just because he doesn't, but the other can't understand why anyone else would want to, either. His question was "Why would you choose to possibly screw up something really big, like a whole life? Parents can really fuck things up, and I just wouldn't want to risk screwing someone ELSE up."

But, his childhood was different than mine. He was a gay teen in rural maine, he went "away" to BU for school, he has a Master's and is the most educated in his family, the list is on and on...

My response was "sure, kids get bad parents, but I think that Dave and I would be really GOOD parents, and a kid raised by good parents may counterbalance the ones that get screwed up."

Dave and I are a loving and respectful couple, and I know of kids who are growing up in violent homes that look picture perfect on the outside.

As far as population growth, we only plan to "replace ourselves" with a maximum of twokids, but that's more a conservation concern than anything.

If someone doesn't think that THEY should have kids, by all means, DON'T! But for those who do, I think that it's a good thing to think about WHY you are doing it. It was an interesting discussion, I've always known I wanted to, but it was good to think about it.

Then there's the "he'll leave me unless I'm pregnant" or "but, he pulled out!" pregnancies, which use different reasoning altogether. Unfortunately, I've seen this happen too much.

edited to say that not all planned kids are in homes with good parents, and not all unplanned kids are in homes with bad parents, but the reference to the unplanned kids was mostly referring to my experiences in rural maine, where it's far too common for very young women to have kids for the wrong reasons. Unfortuntely, I KNOW people who felt that having a baby would be the only way to salvage an already horrible relationship, and it doesn't work -- it just paints one farther into the corner.

I too feel strongly about "zero population growth" and plan on 2 kids. If you can plan on these things.

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Originally posted by ennui:
Could someone explain to me why people have kids? I mean, why would they want to? Clearly, I don't have the hankerin' but I'm REALLY NOT TRYING TO START A FIGHT. I'm just really curious what sorts of things draw people to becoming a parent.

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I understand your question completely. One of my best freinds has the same bewildered feeling that you seem to, and it's not a judgemental thing. Just a "I'm different and I don't understand so please explain it to me" thing.

A bad parent will raise children who view parenting as the opportunity to correct their parents' mistakes. A good parent will raise children who view parenting as the opportunity to repeat their parents' successes.